Creative in mobile game advertising: what wins and why

By John Koetsier May 12, 2020

Cold hard cash to advertise a game is great. An exciting, fun product to market is extremely important. But few factors, if any, beat amazing, compelling creative in mobile game advertising.

Creative grabs attention. It incites action. It compels conversion.

Nielsen says that the quality, messaging, and context of your creative is responsible for as much as 49% of all sales lift. That’s more than five times as much as targeting, and more than double reach. Great award-winning creative is so powerful that ads that win awards generate a full eleven times more market share growth.

So apparently creative is just a little bit important.

That’s why we interviewed PeopleFun’s Design Director, Lee Eisenhuth, and Applovin’s Director of Marketing, Alice Guillaume, for the latest edition of the Growth Masterminds podcast. PeopleFun makes hit games like Wordscapes, and Applovin helps market the world’s best games. What they shared sheds light on the process, magic, testing, and alchemy of mobile game advertising.

Subscribe to Growth Masterminds on your favorite podcasting platform:

And, scroll through key quotes and a full transcript below.

Key quotes: Creative in mobile game advertising

Click-through rate and conversion rate can be mortal enemies

Creatives that are really short bites, like really short, or have messaging or mechanics that are primarily aimed at having a user click, yield a high drop-off at the very end.

– Alice Guillaume, Senior Director of Marketing, Applovin

For some, quantity points out the path to quality

“We have a hundred or so ideas, but we only do creative testing on a half dozen or so per month.”

– Lee Eisenhuth, Design Director, PeopleFun

In mobile advertising, time is in very short supply

So we really have about one to two seconds these days to captivate users in an ad.

– Alice Guillaume, Senior Director of Marketing, Applovin

I … need to teach a game and how it works very quickly.

– Lee Eisenhuth, Design Director, PeopleFun

Mobile game advertising is a copy-paste world

As soon as we find a winning concept, very quickly it’ll get replicated.

– Alice Guillaume, Senior Director of Marketing, Applovin

Would you ever advertise games you haven’t completely made yet, just to test the marketability of the concept?

I do think that’s a step that we’re considering to try next.

– Lee Eisenhuth, Design Director, PeopleFun

Full transcript: creative in mobile game advertising

John Koetsier: How do pink cows, purple velvet shoes, and stone pillows help you beat the competition?

 Welcome to Growth Masterminds with John Koetsier. This is the podcast where smart mobile marketers get even smarter. Today we’re talking about creative, all other things being equal … best creative wins. And sometimes even when they’re not very equal, the best creative wins.

So we’re not talking about shoes today and we’re not talking about pillows, or cows, or anything like that. But we are talking about blasting that box, right? Getting out of it. Doing the unexpected, being creative. 

Today we’ve got two guests we’re going to talk to. Our first guest has been a designer, a game designer, a lead game designer, and now design director at places like Happylatte, Demiurge Studios, and Subatomic … in China and the Boston area. And if you caught one word in particular there, it was designer. Lee Eisenhuth now leads design at PeopleFun, which makes games like Wordscapes. Thanks for joining us, Lee. 

Lee Eisenhuth: Very happy to be here. Thank you. 

John Koetsier: Wonderful. Our second guest started out as an equities analyst at Morgan Stanley. After two years, she discovered that that sucked, so she moved to mobile and marketing, and never looked back. She’s been at her current company almost six years in no fewer than five roles, which means either she’s super awesome and keeps getting poached, or she’s horrible, and people are passing her off. I’m pretty sure it’s the former. 

Alice is a Senior Director of Marketing at Applovin. Welcome, Alice. 

Alice Guillaume: Thank you for having us. 

Staying safe during COVID-19

John Koetsier: Excellent, excellent. Hey, I want to ask, I want to start this off, I’m doing almost all my interviews these days with this … How are you guys doing? Where are you? And are you safe in the current pandemic?

Alice Guillaume:  we’re doing really great. I’m currently based in San Francisco. Our company is well equipped and fully committed to supporting our customers. We’re all working from home right now. Our teams are working hard and most importantly, we’re making sure that all our employees are staying safe.

John Koetsier: Awesome, awesome. And Lee, how are you doing? 

Lee Eisenhuth: Oh doing good. Everybody is working from home, happy to be able to work from home. A little bit harder for the parents. I have a three-year-old daughter who’s bouncing off the walls, but I think we’re doing pretty well … 

John Koetsier: Excellent, excellent. I’ve interviewed a few people with kids and one of them has a trailer, so he moves out to the trailer and that’s his home office, sort of in the yard somewhere, but occasionally the family dog needs to get put in there as well with him so he’s got some barking going on in the background. But hey, we do what we have to. 

Best creative wins: from 100 ideas down to 6

So let’s get into it. We know the best creative wins, right? But what is the best? Is it something that’s odd? Is it something that’s quirky, maybe amazing or intriguing? Some thoughts on that from your perspective, Lee …

Lee Eisenhuth: so for me, the way I usually work with SparkLabs, is we work on new game creative testing a lot. And so when we work on new game creative testing, we focus mainly on controlling them so that they can be tested side by side. So I don’t think that we necessarily try to make them  different or kind of special. We’re mostly trying to test the gameplay against each other so that we can say that the intro and the outro are the same, the duration’s the same. The look and feel is similar, but the gameplay itself is different. And then we check the gameplay against each other to figure out which one people are interested in, and which one are they clicking into, and which game is marketable. 

John Koetsier: Interesting. So if I’m understanding you, you’ve got an ad, it’s got an intro and an outro, the beginning and the end. You want to keep your branding fairly on point and the same across all those. And then you’ve got, maybe it’s a playable, maybe it’s a video, and you’re showing some segment of what’s happening in the game, and you’re making decisions based on what sort of performs in that? 

Lee Eisenhuth: Yeah, we have company-wide brainstorming and ideation, and we have a hundred or so ideas, but we only do creative testing on a half dozen or so per month. So we have to carefully choose which ones we think are promising, and we make a pretty detailed presentation where it takes kind of like a single level of gameplay, and steps slide by slide what the player experiences, and try to really capture what’s special about this game. And then we pass those on to SparkLabs and Alice, and they do a wonderful job trying to really understand what is special about this game, and make it really shine through in the creative. 

John Koetsier: Excellent, excellent. Interesting. Let’s talk a little bit about it from your perspective then, Alice.  What makes for the best creative, and maybe we’ll go general first and then we’ll dial in on exactly what Lee was talking about.

If you look at it in general, what makes for the best creative? Is there something that makes it for the best creative, or is it kind of a crap shoot and different all the time?

One to two seconds: time to capture attention

Alice Guillaume: That’s a great question, absolutely.  I think for SparkLabs what we really spend time focusing  what is the motivation of the players who like this game? And how can we captivate them with the right marketing messaging?

So we really have about one to two seconds these days to captivate users in an ad. Very, very short amount of time. So that’s a key thing is what do you use as the hook.

Then I would say the second best practice is making sure you’re telling a clear story. I think the mind does work in a linear and nonlinear fashion, it’s a bit easier to capture when it’s linear. So we make sure that there’s progression and it’s clear to users what’s going on.

And then I think the third piece that’s really important is evoking a positive emotion. So that can be in the form of humor, curiosity, feeling smart, all those things give users that, you know, mix of chemicals in the brain that makes them want to engage further. So those are the three things we focus on is: captivating the audience, telling a clear story, and evoking positive emotion.

John Koetsier: Excellent. 

Alice Guillaume: Yep. 

Ad creative: the magic is in the details

John Koetsier: Very, very cool. Do you have some examples of some of the creative that you’ve done maybe recently that’s really just blown it out of the water? 

Alice Guillaume: Yeah, I would say there’s a lot of magic to creatives, and this is the piece that I think really opens up those moments of ‘aha’ or ‘wow,’ like I love seeing creative that really amazes you out in the industry. And what makes them amazing is actually a lot of the subtle touches of a creative. You can storyboard something out linearly, but the way you execute it can really differ from designer to designer.

A good example to your question of a creative that I’ve made that really performed well, and was beautiful, was a renovation customization playable we had done. And what made it really stood out is we picked really beautiful scenes with beautiful areas to upgrade, and then the designers really added amazing touches of sparkles, good camera zooming, good timing, good pacing.

These are all really subtle things that really create a holistic, magical experience that ultimately makes a user take a second look and want to check out the app store and hopefully download. 

John Koetsier: Nice.

Lee, do you have some thoughts of some creative that you’ve seen maybe in the past few months or whatever that, hey, that actually, that was amazing for me?

Lee Eisenhuth: For the creative that SparkLabs has developed for us, I think it’s really interesting because I do need to teach a game and how it works very quickly, and I think watching how that unfolds is really interesting. We can watch some creatives where people instantly understand it and they’ll click on it in the first few seconds, and we know that they’ve somehow managed to teach it immediately, and we have other creatives which players will watch for 20-30 seconds, the whole way through and not click on it , or maybe they will.

But that creative was very compelling to them, it was something that they were willing to spend because they can close out of it, but they were willing to spend that time watching that creative. And by the end of the creative, they understand it well enough to make a decision on whether to click through it or not.

So I think I’m not sure which one in particular is especially amazing, but I think  just overall watching how the gameplay is shown over the course of the creative is really interesting to me.

User psychology: to click or not to click

John Koetsier: Cool.

Alice, do you have some idea of the psychology that’s going on in a player’s mind as they click in the first few seconds, or as Lee said, they watch for literally 30 seconds, 20 seconds, and then either click or don’t click.

What’s going on in the mind?

Alice Guillaume: Yeah, this is super interesting.

So currently there’s a lot of trailers out there that are a little bit more offbeat and less relevant to the game. I’m sure you have seen some of these where it’s using probably a bit more cartoony assets, not actually matching the game, and then the mechanic has nothing to do with the game either. These can be things like two characters walking through a scenario and each scenario they’re presented with two options and they have to choose, right? Like they’re faced with a bear and they decide to give the bear honey or throw dynamite at them, and then a series of events or disaster events that either end in a fail or win.

Another one of these are like puzzles, so you presented with pins to pull and there’s a character on the bottom and then if you pull the wrong pin, the lava, the top will release and fall down and kill that character, right? These videos have been saturating the market and to some extent they have become very, very marketable in high-performing creatives that are not relevant to the ad.

I think these creatives are ones where users tend to click earlier, they have high click-through rates because the psychology behind this is it’s more of a push than a pull psychology. It’s pushing you to do something based off of whatever is going on in your context of play.

So this is definitely from the motivation of the player, this is more what is the context you’re playing. You could be playing to pass the time, playing to escape, playing because you’re waiting in the bus or the doctor’s office. And so it’s that short term stimulation and then when presented with the puzzle, you feel smart, you feel superior, and as a result you will engage to get that feeling.

Versus a, let’s say, relevant-to-game video where you’re showing gameplay using relevant assets, it’s beautiful, it’s a narrative, you want to find what happens next so you’ll watch, it’s like watching a movie trailer. You’ll watch to the end and you know, you had a great time, it was a great experience, it was entertainment in 30 seconds. But potentially not willing to commit all the way through to installing, unless you’re absolutely the right user that was marketed to.

So those are the two psychologies. 

When NOT getting the click might be better

John Koetsier: I find that super interesting because I’ve been in that situation. I mean, we all have, right? 

We all play a few games, I mean, the percentage of people who play some games is huge, it’s massive, it’s 80-90% of people with a smartphone, right? And so you get targeted by ads and you see them and sometimes, I think it can be a good thing that you don’t get the click, because you’ve watched it and said, ‘Yeah, that’s interesting, interesting. I don’t think I’d like that game.’

And so you don’t click, you don’t get that install.

That’s a good thing because you know what? I wasn’t going to be a longterm user of that app anyways right? On the other hand, if that was mistaken and you showed me something, and this is to one of Lee’s points of different types of gameplay, and you showed me something and you showed me a piece of the game that I wouldn’t like, but there is a piece that I would like maybe,  then you’ve got challenges there.

It’s an interesting challenge. 

Alice Guillaume: 100%, definitely. 

Does process kill creativity?

John Koetsier: Good. So let’s talk about creative process. Does process kill creativity?  Do you let some ideas just go through unfiltered? Do you A/B test everything? Alice, why don’t you go first on this one? 

Alice Guillaume: Yeah. So here on SparkLabs, we’ve been operating for about seven years, so we have been in industry for a while. Our process has evolved a lot through the years.

I think I’d say seven years ago it was impressive to have a nice, beautiful banner ad. These days it’s you’re expected to be able to produce a playable ad across any studio. And as a result of that evolution our process has changed. I think when I first started out on a more personal level, it was more structured, more easy to templatize and replicable across anybody on the team because we have a fairly large team, around 30 to 40 people.

And now as the market has evolved, that’s adapted to become more fluid because the need for innovation and that human touch of creativity is so much higher, because it’s so much harder to outperform. 

As soon as we find a winning concept, very quickly it’ll get replicated in the market anyways. So what we have evolved to now is process that doesn’t kill creativity.

You need some guidelines so that you’re steering the team towards a specific goal. Let’s say we want to drive high volume, or like you said earlier you want to drive high quality users that will stay in the game long term. But outside of that, really allowing creatives to be creative, and play, and experiment in an intelligent manner where we can gather valuable learnings and test solid hypothesis.

John Koetsier: Yeah. Super interesting. Lee, what are your thoughts there? I mean, what’s your process, because of course you’re overseeing this, you have people who are making things for you, but you’re kind of putting the pieces together and you’ve got the end result there.

How do you use process versus just some magic?

Lee Eisenhuth: Yeah. I think one of the nicest things at PeopleFun is our ability to A/B test anything.

So in the past, every decision was just very, very hard because you had to make the right decision and you didn’t always have all the information to make the right decision. And a lot of times things are killed in development.  You spend months on a feature and it doesn’t work out, or even you release it and people don’t like it. But now we can A/B test just about anything.

So anytime somebody has an idea, I’m happy to say that we can just try it. 

It makes me feel really good and it’s especially good because I can make some guesses and over time I can watch the results and see how that turns out.

I think the limiting factor is typically time. So we have like a suite of new games that we’re releasing at PeopleFun. So with these new games, I really need to drive results pretty rapidly and decide which games are the winners or losers, and which we’ll support. So I think in that situation, I need to go for the low hanging fruit, things I know will succeed. Things like daily puzzle, or  different longterm retention features. 

But as we build up the design team and the product team, we kind of let people just spend time ideating and brainstorming, and when we have time, we can do more risky features. And I’m not worried about that because we can just A/B test it. So I think that process  helps a lot.

Although with limited resources, we do need to prioritize where we spend our time on the best and most reliable opportunities,  I think as we grow the team and through AB testing, and even creative testing, for example, testing art direction creatively, we were also doing that with SparkLabs. I think there’s a lot of opportunity for creativity. 

Ad creative: Alchemy and algebra

John Koetsier: I love that. I love that because obviously you’re a very technical guy. You’ve built games, designed games and other stuff like that, but you’re allowing room for that creativity.

It reminds me of an interview I did recently with Rory Sutherland. He is at Ogilvy, UK. He’s also a TED speaker with 7 million views of his TED talks, and he talked about using data to explore, versus using data to exploit, right?

And there’s different strategies in those, exploring new horizons, different things, versus exploiting what’s really, really working. And he made the point that, you know, sometimes in companies, everything that’s awesome, some accountant would say ‘no’ to, right? His book is about alchemy, about the magic and finding that, and finding ways to make that happen. 

Alice, how does that work into your process?

Alice Guillaume: Yeah, so here at SparkLabs, we are very data driven. So, I like what you said about using data to explore rather than exploit it. I think we resonate with that as well, because we are trying to constantly find the next thing. So we make sure we understand what’s going good.

We look at your ads, your research, then we brainstorm and then we formulate hypotheses to test, and then we control for those variables through the creatives  we test. For example, my theory is that people love playing WordScapes because they love feeling smart, then I want to tap into messaging that evokes a sense of challenge, a sense of training the brain, a sense of completionism.

Then we create that ad, and then we test it and we analyze the results, and we see  are we driving the type of users we want to be driving? Are the metrics panning out the way we want it to? If so, great, or maybe more likely these days it’s, you hit some marks and you miss others, and that’s when it gets really interesting and sophisticated as you start to play with different levers and the creative that you can actually see tangible results.

Right, if I tweak a creative to have an interesting intro or an interesting end modal, I can see that conversion rates get higher or lower, or click rates take the opposite direction, and then I can start to really play to get the results that really helps PeopleFun achieve their business goals. 

CTR vs CVR: mortal combat?

John Koetsier: Interesting, very interesting. Do you ever have it that you find some creative that works really, really well on click-through rate, but not so well on conversion, or vice versa? 

Alice Guillaume: Absolutely. I would say that creatives that are really short bites, like really short, or have messaging or mechanics that are primarily aimed at having a user click, yield a high drop-off at the very end.

John Koetsier: Interesting!

Alice Guillaume: Which is, yeah, which is something we actually don’t really want to spend a lot of our time on. We want to be driving high quality users to help these businesses and our partners grow sustainably in the long run. 

John Koetsier: So what you’re saying is there’s a high correlation between the length of the creative and the conversion rate, as a result of a click on that creative. Is that correct? 

Alice Guillaume: Yes, I would say that is correct. If you build out a longer and more immersive mechanic, then what you’re doing is you’re raising the bar on the player showing their intent of engagement. 

Ad creative: new games vs existing games

John Koetsier: Interesting, interesting. Okay. Very, very cool. Let’s talk about new games versus existing games, and what changes in marketing them.

It was funny, I was talking to somebody at Supercell, probably about three months ago or so, and for some of their iconic games, which are these massive brands in their own rights, they keep the same creative for three months or six months or something like that. It’s just very different than almost anybody else in the industry, right?

What are your thoughts and how do you approach creative for a new game versus creative for an existing game that already has an audience? 

Alice Guillaume: So for new games, I view it as a blank canvas where, we’re just starting to figure out who the right demographic is and what type of branding and messaging we can put out there, which is very, very exciting. So we cast a very broad net.

So everything I discussed earlier, we do but at high production output, where we are throwing darts at the dartboard and trying to see what sticks. Then you can start to hone in and zoom in. So that’s one approach with new games.

With longer running games, these I find very interesting because it’s a bit more challenging. Where you already have a preset, of ads that, like you had mentioned, work well and have likely been running sustainably for a long term and you need to beat that ad out. And in mobile buying, most likely these creatives have some inherent learning as well, which makes it even harder to beat them out. Because you either have to augment the current messaging or find a new niche or target a messaging that stands out from what has been done before and that’s challenging.

So with those, what we’ll most likely do is do deeper dives on how can we elevate that motivation that we’re seeing.

For example, if people love solving puzzles and it’s a puzzle game, but I can’t make 2,000 or 3,000 more puzzle ads because they’ve pretty much all been done, then we start to really push the boundaries of thinking about what are other puzzle meta games they can try and still use a relevant branded asset so that we can start to bridge users towards that new way of looking at this game. And then what we’re doing a result is bringing in more pockets of quality users that haven’t been tapped into before, but can also be aligned with what that product provides for them. 

John Koetsier: Again there’s interesting psychology there, right? Because I’ve personally had it where I’ve seen an ad for a game multiple times. I’ve even heard of the game outside of an advertising context or something like that, I’ve ignored it, ignored it, ignored it, and like the 10th time or the 20th time, oh, what the heck, I’ll give it a shot. And so…

Alice Guillaume: Totally, exactly.

The creativity in making new games …

John Koetsier: Lee, I want to ask you from your perspective, what’s the toughest part about creative when you’re marketing games?

Lee Eisenhuth: The hardest part for me is just trying to find out, of the games currently on the market, can we twist them a little bit to make something new? What spaces are there? What opportunities are there for something totally new? What do players want?

You know, we work a lot with word games and casual puzzle games so we’re looking at why do players like word games, what do they enjoy about it? And we’ll take something like that and explore that from a game design perspective with brainstorming and presentations, and it takes dozens of ideas to come to just one that may be worth creative testing.

To me, that’s the hard part.

And I think if we manage to find something that looks fun, and word game players or casual game players may enjoy it, we still don’t know. You know, one of the things I learned is there’s so little that developers control. We make guesses and we try to put fun things together, but we need to do this marketability testing because we don’t know what players really like.

We spend a half year, or a year, or two years making a game and then nobody clicks on the ad.

It was a waste of time. So I think that that’s where we’re trying to kind of merge the creativity of design with something scientific, and that’s kind of where we’re collaborating on. So in terms of the creative itself, I don’t actually give too much input on that. The only thing I care about is whether or not it accurately reflects the gameplay.

Because if it is really great and everybody clicks on it, but then it’s not the game that we think will be fun, then we’ll have a game that is marketable but not really playable.

Maybe that’s lower attention or we can’t teach it, so I guess that’s where we intersect. 

John Koetsier: I absolutely love that because I have had that as well, where I’ve seen ads that bear almost no relationship to the actual game. And the ad looked great and you click on it, and the game is nothing like the ad, and that basically is a quick delete.

And worse than that, a kind of a pissed off attitude towards the studio that brought you that game, right? And so you actually have kind of a built-in negative reaction to anything else that the studio brings out. So that’s really, really smart.

New opportunities and marketability studies

I want to follow up on something that you said there, Lee, and you talked about marketability studies. When does that come in? And do you find yourself running ads for games that don’t exist, so that you can see, hey, this concept has legs, we should go farther on it? 

Lee Eisenhuth: Yes. So when we have our brainstorming and ideation, we split the games up into two categories. One is considered our portfolio game, and the other one are kind of new opportunities.

The portfolio games are ones which are kind of an existing space, a game that kind of exists, maybe it’s a word search game or some puzzle game, and those, we don’t creative test. We don’t need to creative test those, we can look AppAnnie or other sources to kind of guess the opportunity there. How big is the market size? How much competition there is.

But for the ones which there is no reference for, that’s where we have to creative test it. Yeah, I would guess if we have ten games creative tested, there may be one or two that is worth moving forward from. And from there we would go to prototyping and we’d put something together in a few days and try it out because maybe we thought it was a great idea. Maybe people also thought it was a great idea, they click on the ad, but then when we prototype it, it’s actually not a good experience. So anyway, that’s just what I was thinking. 

Advertising games you haven’t (totally) made yet?

John Koetsier: That is super interesting. So I just want to follow that for another half a second before asking Alice her perception on the same topic.

So somebody actually clicked on that ad and what did they come to, did they come to kind of a prototype game to like one level, to almost a playable ad, or how far did you go on that development there for that game that you’re considering building?

 Lee Eisenhuth: I think for our current creative testing there’s nothing to play, but I do think that’s a step that we’re considering to try next. We haven’t really carefully considered the sort of cost or benefit, but I think that that would be awesome if we did have a game, which we decided was marketable, and then we prototyped it and we felt that it was fun and could retain users for months.

Then the next step would be really nice to do some sort of testing where we could get a real CPI cost per install from a prototype and an ad. 

John Koetsier: Really interesting.

Alice, want to ask your thoughts on that, because of course it’s great to have great data before you invest millions of dollars in game production, right? And potentially 10x that in marketing costs. And yet you also want to have a good experience for somebody who clicks on an ad for a game that turns out to be a prototype. 

Alice Guillaume: Yes. So, let me backtrack a little bit because you had asked two really big questions.

One is what is the greatest challenge of creative marketing? And two is how do we tie that into prototype testing. I think a lot of what Lee said, I definitely echo and resonate with.

I would just add on for what’s challenging for creative marketing is, the irony is, for myself where I’ve been doing this for several years, that neutral mindset going in is really hard to maintain, because it’s very easy to be, you know I can be Joe, and I already when you tell me mid-core game, I’m ready to think all of these things from my past and I’m trying to reconcile that with the new game.

Which means I probably already set myself on a path of bias.

So that neutral mindset is really hard to let go of. And the second piece I would say is, I actually think mobile gaming players are different from PC and console players, and I think the palette of understanding what they like is not necessarily super well-defined or in the same type of language as PC and gaming.

So as as a result, right, we were talking about these ads that don’t have relevancy to the game, but for some reason they’re still performing well. I think that’s a function of, if you were to ask the mobile gamer what type of games do they like or not like, they may not be able to fully even define that. And you know, that includes myself too.

It’s a different media.

So as a result, marketing towards mobile games is partially science and partially experimentation design like Lee said, because that palette hasn’t been fully defined yet. And the way it’s going to be defined, I think it’s going to be a little different than PC and console as well. So transitioning that into how do we then do creative marketing for potential future games, when the game isn’t done, right? I think we look at things like how much the engagement is happening with video even, or how much engagement is even happening with the playable.

Nowadays with playable analytics, you can also dive a little bit deeper into where do people drop off? Are people engaging? And so you can gather those metrics without a full game being developed. Or if you do have a game developed, great. Or you can find something in between that says, in app store, ‘This game is being worked on. Come back later when it’s ready.’ 

John Koetsier: Nice, nice. Love it. 

 I’m glad you could join. Lee, it was a real pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. Alice, it was wonderful to hear from you also, and great insights. Very much appreciate all of your time. 

Alice Guillaume: Thanks so much, John. Appreciate your time. 

John Koetsier: You bet. Have a great day everybody. Stay safe. 

Subscribe to Growth Masterminds

Made it all the way down here? Subscribe to Growth Masterminds so you’ll never miss an episode:



Stay up to date on the latest happenings in digital marketing

Simply send us your email and you’re in! We promise not to spam you.